So it would seem!
All you need to do is square the voltage you got on the tone and that number will be the wattage rating (@8 ohms) of an amp that will not clip. It will not clip a full scale signal (0dB) at the volume setting you used.
To know how much power you are using during normal playback is much more complicated. You'd need to know the average level of the tracks you are playing, or you would need to measure the output directly. That is not the point of this test.
By taking your -12dB voltage and multiplying by 4, you will know the maximum voltage your amp will ever output at that volume setting. From there, you can use Ohm's law to calculate a lot of other things.
TOM
1) I don't think you can record a square wave (sems you glide over that bit)
1)I don't think you can brag about speaker response to square wave Either.
Batery is only aproximation woffer (aproximation again) goes out and stay out
you ear very litle
So a square wave is now a triangular wave.
I think I have already mentioned what a square wave is.
It exist in nature as a wave? NO
The usefulness of a square wave is to see how an electronic stage respond to rapid change
I use it a lot on testing Phono stages
Sems like you are missing the point.
Pano Test is good because is simple people like me or (sorry first name that came up) rongon understandit and have sometink to work with that will help understand a bit more
I can start bragin about who I have worked with how many recording studios I have built
how many records I collaborated 2 that went to the top 10 in the chart
about a 32 Kw system I use and to partly own or how log it tok to fill the lories with it how many hours I spent broadcasting in radio stations
And how badly messed up my earing especialy on the left side is as a result to this
BUT IT WILL ALL BE AGINST WHAT THIS TREAD IS ABOUT SO NOW I AM GOING TO SHUT THE F...UP.
GOT IT ?
1) I don't think you can record a square wave (sems you glide over that bit)
1)I don't think you can brag about speaker response to square wave Either.
Batery is only aproximation woffer (aproximation again) goes out and stay out
you ear very litle
So a square wave is now a triangular wave.
I think I have already mentioned what a square wave is.
It exist in nature as a wave? NO
The usefulness of a square wave is to see how an electronic stage respond to rapid change
I use it a lot on testing Phono stages
Sems like you are missing the point.
Pano Test is good because is simple people like me or (sorry first name that came up) rongon understandit and have sometink to work with that will help understand a bit more
I can start bragin about who I have worked with how many recording studios I have built
how many records I collaborated 2 that went to the top 10 in the chart
about a 32 Kw system I use and to partly own or how log it tok to fill the lories with it how many hours I spent broadcasting in radio stations
And how badly messed up my earing especialy on the left side is as a result to this
BUT IT WILL ALL BE AGINST WHAT THIS TREAD IS ABOUT SO NOW I AM GOING TO SHUT THE F...UP.
GOT IT ?
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a.wayne. You must have missed 5th Element's reply just above yours (#319). He address the Floyd/1812 issue perfectly.
Perhaps I started from the flawed assumption that folks here know about dynamic range and recordings. Classical music can be very dynamically demanding difficult, but I thought everyone here knew that and would chose their tracks wisely. Maybe not.
Perhaps I started from the flawed assumption that folks here know about dynamic range and recordings. Classical music can be very dynamically demanding difficult, but I thought everyone here knew that and would chose their tracks wisely. Maybe not.
No.
Yes.
Yes. This means you need 23.12 watts to reproduce a signal of 0dBfs into an 8 ohm resistive load.
No it does not. This test does not, cannot, will not, be able to predict what your 'average' power use-age is, as that is dependent on the average recorded level of the music you were listening to when you set the volume. This test simply determines the maximum amount of 8 ohm resistive power you will need to reproduce a signal of 0dB fs at volume you ran the test at.
I think it would be interesting see how the results compare. The level you set the volume to will also depends on the balance of the system. If you've got a more laid back system you might end up setting it 3dB higher then with a more forward balanced pair of loudspeakers.
a.wayne
soryy but as i understud things.
-12 dB let one use a simple moltiplication by 4 to get same results
the 2 sine test tone as such a low frequency let one get same results with a normal DM.
I am shure you have a DM that can mesure up to 20K
But not everibody have one or can borrow one from their day job.
simple and very elegant
how many times one get to ask why complicate things when you don't need 2 ?
soryy but as i understud things.
-12 dB let one use a simple moltiplication by 4 to get same results
the 2 sine test tone as such a low frequency let one get same results with a normal DM.
I am shure you have a DM that can mesure up to 20K
But not everibody have one or can borrow one from their day job.
simple and very elegant
how many times one get to ask why complicate things when you don't need 2 ?
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Different reference , Jessica Williams live at yoshi track 5 , pretty dynamic compared to first reference...
1. bass decade 20-200hz ..... 3.5 v
2. mid decade 250 -2 k .... 3.4 v
3. treble decade 2.5-20k ..... 3.0 v
The first reference sounded louder to me or as loud as i would want to play it, the Williams piano recording i had to raise the level to hear the piano to get the same percieved loudness as before...
Thats a 40% increase ...........
1. bass decade 20-200hz ..... 3.5 v
2. mid decade 250 -2 k .... 3.4 v
3. treble decade 2.5-20k ..... 3.0 v
The first reference sounded louder to me or as loud as i would want to play it, the Williams piano recording i had to raise the level to hear the piano to get the same percieved loudness as before...
Thats a 40% increase ...........
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Pano,
Like i said, 5th was correct in his explanation, it had nothing to do with my response and what you are doing here is not wrong. My only point was for you to select a track and send it to all, then have them do the test , then the results will have uniformity to that track and valid comparision when comparing systems.
On dynamically compressed stuff that most here listen to , there is an percieved loudness and will require very little power, as most compressed recordings do, not so with soft , black quite background recordings, with large dynamic range, they will need 20 times that power , hence Toms comment about reproducing the sound of a fork hitting the ground ....
To get the same percieved loudness will require mucho !!!!!
Like i said, 5th was correct in his explanation, it had nothing to do with my response and what you are doing here is not wrong. My only point was for you to select a track and send it to all, then have them do the test , then the results will have uniformity to that track and valid comparision when comparing systems.
On dynamically compressed stuff that most here listen to , there is an percieved loudness and will require very little power, as most compressed recordings do, not so with soft , black quite background recordings, with large dynamic range, they will need 20 times that power , hence Toms comment about reproducing the sound of a fork hitting the ground ....
To get the same percieved loudness will require mucho !!!!!
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OK......
. My point ... they will need more than 25 watts unless they plan on listening to the same song forever ....
@pano, you have your low -Z low sensitivity numbers now pano ..., well somewhat reference was -20db ....
I'm not sure, but let's see if we can figure it out. If you used the track I Say A Little Prayer For You from the White Sands album, it seems to be recorded a bit hot. Like RMS average of 11dB to 13dB below full scale. For me, it would not be a great choice for level setting, as much of the music I have is more dynamic than that.
You got 2.5 as your highest reading with -20dB signal. Multiply that by 10X (20dB) and you get 25 volts peak. That's a peak wattage of 78 into 8 ohms, or 156 into 4 ohms. An amp honestly rated at half that on a sine wave would do.
But only at that volume setting. If your track is hot, which I think it is, then you are likely to push the volume on more dynamic tracks. Looking at a few recordings of the 1812 overture, the softer passages are recorded at about -27dB, or 14dB below your reference track. To play those soft passages as loud as the Brown tack, you'll need another 14dB headroom, at least, to handle the loud parts. That's 5X the voltage.
Of course it's not likely you'd play the soft passages of the 1812 as loud as the jazz track, but if you wanted to, you'd need a whole lot of headroom!
Hum which of those would you use as reference?
Nuclear Tests to the 1812 Overture - YouTube
Tchaikovsky "1812 Overture" with 105mm Cannons 20101017 (2/2) - YouTube
Peter Tchaikovsky 1812 Overture (real cannons) - YouTube
Same again for Floyds
Original or American version of the same records
Or the digitaly and much compressed Pulse in 180 G or even worst the CD version?
If you use a record as reference could you please give us the catalog number?
Nuclear Tests to the 1812 Overture - YouTube
Tchaikovsky "1812 Overture" with 105mm Cannons 20101017 (2/2) - YouTube
Peter Tchaikovsky 1812 Overture (real cannons) - YouTube
Same again for Floyds
Original or American version of the same records
Or the digitaly and much compressed Pulse in 180 G or even worst the CD version?
If you use a record as reference could you please give us the catalog number?
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Use only the mercury recordings for the 1812 .. i have others they are compressed and horrible ..
Then you are deliberately skewing the test to make a point that does not have to be made. It has been addressed several times in this thread by me and others. If you listen to dynamic recordings, then use dynamic test tracks to set your level.
I will freely admit that I should have been more clear about using dynamic recordings in the first posts. My mistake. I will go back and edit that so as to be more clear.
On the other hand, what if someone listens only to dynamically compressed recordings? Should he go out of his way to pick a style of recording he never listens to just for the sake of the test? 5th Element has already addressed that in a recent post.
My point ... they will need more than 25 watts unless they plan on listening to the same song forever ....
Yes but that was only an example, the user is supposed to do this test when using the most demanding music he or she has. Ergo, if it can replay 1812 without clipping then it will probably replay any other music without clipping too.
Hi 5th
Not refusing, just not seeing the strong relationship to the title which seems to suggest it was about what is required to drive the speakers.
I am talking about reproducing the signal which is different in that it is also not subjective.
For example, you CAN’T hear instantaneous clipping as a discrete flaw it’s only audible when you can compare to not clipped / limited in that it is less dynamic sounding. Audible clipping / compression only happens well into gross non-linearity, well past where I am interested.
Part of the issue too is I have many different signal sources that I can pass to the system “volume control”, for me it is only adjustable gain knob, not a indicator of power or Voltage and doesn’t even have markings or readout.
I did the test, with 101dB 1w1M sensitivity speakers it takes about ½ VRMS mid band sine to reach a very decent loudness.
How much Voltage does it take to reproduce the variety of things I like to listen to in their dynamic entirety?
The answer to me seems that it depends on the dynamic peak to average ratio in the music and the dynamic nonlinearity of the speakers and not just 4X the .5VRms margin.
That margin IS plenty for a lot of recordings, especially modern pop but well short of others, way short of reproducing real life events in a normal noise floor.
My goal is to be able to fool people with sound, to make it seem like you are somewhere else, capturing / preserving dynamics is part of it.
Best,
Tom
Not refusing, just not seeing the strong relationship to the title which seems to suggest it was about what is required to drive the speakers.
I am talking about reproducing the signal which is different in that it is also not subjective.
For example, you CAN’T hear instantaneous clipping as a discrete flaw it’s only audible when you can compare to not clipped / limited in that it is less dynamic sounding. Audible clipping / compression only happens well into gross non-linearity, well past where I am interested.
Part of the issue too is I have many different signal sources that I can pass to the system “volume control”, for me it is only adjustable gain knob, not a indicator of power or Voltage and doesn’t even have markings or readout.
I did the test, with 101dB 1w1M sensitivity speakers it takes about ½ VRMS mid band sine to reach a very decent loudness.
How much Voltage does it take to reproduce the variety of things I like to listen to in their dynamic entirety?
The answer to me seems that it depends on the dynamic peak to average ratio in the music and the dynamic nonlinearity of the speakers and not just 4X the .5VRms margin.
That margin IS plenty for a lot of recordings, especially modern pop but well short of others, way short of reproducing real life events in a normal noise floor.
My goal is to be able to fool people with sound, to make it seem like you are somewhere else, capturing / preserving dynamics is part of it.
Best,
Tom
I still think is an interesting angle on all this,
Average voltage, that's 0.637 vpk for a sine. So peak voltage here is what, about 1.56 volts. Average voltage is all we can realistically measure here when talking of a music waveform.
Distortion ? as viewed on a scope or, distortion due to room/accoustics or just too loud for comfort. It doesn't matter, you are the one setting the level that's right for you.
Average voltage again (6vac), so that's around 9.4 volts peak.
6 volts ac average level and and 22 volts (average or rms ?). That's 10.5 db to nearly 12 db as you say.
So 5 to 6 volts is not good to listen to for you. So lets be generous and say 7 volts average which is 11 volts peak. Rounding up that's 8 volts RMS
I vote Andrews amp should deliver 8 volts RMS into, ohh that's another can of worms... lets just call it a constant voltage amp
So I make that an 8 watt RMS amplifier.
Interesting !
Are you thinking along the lines "that a 20 watt amp always sounds better than a 10 watter and that a 40 watt amp will be better than both and so on even if the 10 watt is never clipped ? Just wondered... if so I think that is a different issue.
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Another angle to try and get this across (to all of you, this isn't aimed at anyone)...
Any amplifier... your amplifier that you listen too has gain. Yes ?
And if we say to set the volume to a given position, a position that is as loud as you can stand on the music you typically listen too, then we can say that the gain is Vout/Vin. Yes ! But we don't know Vin or Vout with music.
So we play Panos test track and measure the constant voltage at the speaker. We can then calculate the max voltage that your amp will ever put out on that volume setting you have just dialled in.
How can we know that for sure, and that it's realistic and reliable ?
It is because Panos track is at a known absolute level below the maximum your CD player can put out. Knowing how much voltage that track puts across the speaker allows us to say for sure what the voltage at 0db would be (0db being the the max level attainable off CD).
So we can say with absolute confidence what the maximum voltage could ever be and thus from that calculate the maximum RMS power needed to deliver that. We assume 8 ohms as a load although it's best to think in terms of the amp as a constant voltage source and ensure it can deliver that across your speaker.
Pano... think I'd have another week off if I were you
Average voltage, that's 0.637 vpk for a sine. So peak voltage here is what, about 1.56 volts. Average voltage is all we can realistically measure here when talking of a music waveform.
Distortion ? as viewed on a scope or, distortion due to room/accoustics or just too loud for comfort. It doesn't matter, you are the one setting the level that's right for you.
Average voltage again (6vac), so that's around 9.4 volts peak.
6 volts ac average level and and 22 volts (average or rms ?). That's 10.5 db to nearly 12 db as you say.
So 5 to 6 volts is not good to listen to for you. So lets be generous and say 7 volts average which is 11 volts peak. Rounding up that's 8 volts RMS
I vote Andrews amp should deliver 8 volts RMS into, ohh that's another can of worms... lets just call it a constant voltage amp
So I make that an 8 watt RMS amplifier.
Interesting !
Are you thinking along the lines "that a 20 watt amp always sounds better than a 10 watter and that a 40 watt amp will be better than both and so on even if the 10 watt is never clipped ? Just wondered... if so I think that is a different issue.
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Another angle to try and get this across (to all of you, this isn't aimed at anyone)...
Any amplifier... your amplifier that you listen too has gain. Yes ?
And if we say to set the volume to a given position, a position that is as loud as you can stand on the music you typically listen too, then we can say that the gain is Vout/Vin. Yes ! But we don't know Vin or Vout with music.
So we play Panos test track and measure the constant voltage at the speaker. We can then calculate the max voltage that your amp will ever put out on that volume setting you have just dialled in.
How can we know that for sure, and that it's realistic and reliable ?
It is because Panos track is at a known absolute level below the maximum your CD player can put out. Knowing how much voltage that track puts across the speaker allows us to say for sure what the voltage at 0db would be (0db being the the max level attainable off CD).
So we can say with absolute confidence what the maximum voltage could ever be and thus from that calculate the maximum RMS power needed to deliver that. We assume 8 ohms as a load although it's best to think in terms of the amp as a constant voltage source and ensure it can deliver that across your speaker.
Pano... think I'd have another week off if I were you
Okay, lets keep this simple for the time being. Where do you see the below comment as being described in any of the tests outlined here?
That is the 4x Vrms value as being some kind of 'margin'?
That is the 4x Vrms value as being some kind of 'margin'?
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25.46V would normally correspond with 105dB (~19dB + 86dB/W/m), which is something the ESL63 is not capable of.
(so much for the oldy 303 and it's ~22V max)
I've actually cheated a bit by disconnecting the loudspeakers before doing the measurement, measuring with test CD's with -10 dBFS and 0 dBFS sine waves and calculating the equivalent Pano test levels.
25.46 V only corresponds to 102 dB because it is a peak value. Still, as an ESL-63 can handle 10 V RMS continuous and 40 V programme peak, a 0 dBFS sine wave could indeed have damaged it. For music there is still 4 dB of headroom to the 106 dB that an ESL-63 can produce (extrapolated to 1 m).
Well OK, maybe my title was too brief - maybe it should have been "How Much Voltage do you need to get your speakers to the loudest level you ever use in your room at your listening position with your music?" But that seemed a bit long.
In my defense, I did not title the thread "A Test. How much power will you ever need to reproduce the real level of fireworks, jet engines and cannon in a big room?" That is a fun and enjoyable goal, but not the goal of most music lovers with a home system.
Yes, we know. But almost all music listeners set their system volume subjectively. Are they wrong to do so? Should they buy an SPL meter and set the level to some specific SPL on a reference recording to comply with objective standards? Even if they don't like the results? I've tried that several times over the years and found it does not jibe with the levels I typically use. It's good to know what that level is, but I don't let it dictate my own volume settings.
Yes, absolutely. I've seen live level signals come out of a kick drum mic. You could run a mixing console in the red the whole time, or back it way down. That's not the same as the typical music lover sitting at home listening to CDs. He has a maximum level "carved in stone". From a typical CD player that maximum level will be 2V RMS. From portable players it is usually lower. Once the volume control on the amp is set, then the gain is set. The maximum output of the amp can never go above Vin*gain. How could it?
Thanks very much for doing the test and reporting your results. Unfortunately, we don't know how your mid band sine relates to your peak value. Is it -12dB, -6dB, -25dB? If you were to set your volume control to a very loud setting - whatever that is, then measure a tone of known value (like -12dB) then we could compare it to the results that others have gotten.
Again, this says to me that you do not understand the test. Simply set your volume control to wherever it needs to be for you to get the level you desire - but it 92dB or 106dB, it doesn't matter. Once you have set that level, you figure out the maximum voltage your digital source and amplifier will deliver. Analog sources are not nearly so tidy, tho they can be measured.
You may interested to know that my main system is a pair of Altec A5 speakers with a passive crossover of my own design. I need very little voltage to play as loud as I ever care too. In a bigger space, I'm sure those levels will go up.